83 replies to this topic

[P1G V3n0m]

Well, the trickjumping in virtually every shooter out there that ever did it well wasn't something deliberately laid out from the start. In Quake, Half Life/CS/Source games, ect, it's been an exploit or series of exploits in the persistent player physics system that people have found, and learned to abuse to gain an advantage. The only times it started out as something deliberate with a new engine, it wound up being shallow and missing much of what made it fun to begin with.(Painkiller, for example)

I think it depends on the player's ideals. Some people want a game they can play that doesn't require hours of muscle memory training, while others need something that separates themselves from a player that hasn't put in the time to develop it. Some people say it raises the skill ceiling or adds depth, but mostly what it does is make the gap between casual and hardcore larger. A hardcore player isn't necessarily more skilled than a casual player, they just devote more time to the game and learning the little nuances. Time spent does not = skill, but it does give players that want something to work towards another goal. This same argument is made about fighting games that require the player to memorize and practice over and over long combo chains in order to compete. Sadly, that is a big turn off for people that like the game but don't want to spend hours exercising their muscle memory. It's a shallow way to add depth but is commonly accepted as the norm.

I understand that the casualization of the arena FPS genre is not what people want, but is there no other way to add depth to the movement that doesn't rely heavily on muscle memory? I've said it before, the depth to the movement in Quake doesn't come from training the muscle memory, but rather from knowing how to use those techniques effectively. Training the muscle memory is merely and obstacle in the way of properly playing the game.

[Mouse]

I think that's kind of the point of Nexuiz with it's slow walking speed, fast immediate jumping speed, and slow build of speed for every jump thereafter, as well as some obvious(and some less obvious) ways to abuse that to build speed faster. Just jumping around alone hugely improves speed over walking already. And, since there's so much air control, and almost total ground control between jumps, maintaining speed and not flying off the map is less about muscle memory and more about technique.

I think the main problem comes from the fact that a lot of people just want to feel better than other people, without actually learning the theory or understanding how to be good at it. Especially from this kind of game, people want to go online, kill people like that guy in their favorite Halo/CoD montage, and then brag about it on forums. I don't know if it's a huge problem right now, as I've been busy with other things, but that's the kind of attitude I see around any new competitive game released. Everyone whines that this or that thing is broken because it doesn't suit them, and gives other players an advantage. Some people even complain that the act of jumping is, in and of it's self, broken and an exploit, and should only be used to get around.(seriously, this happens. wtf.)
You really can't even attempt to please everyone anymore. There's just no way to do it. The best thing to do is just keep on going with the flow of whatever they came up with, and try to build on it and improve it objectively. If people dislike the flow of the game, they either didn't give it a chance or it just isn't for them. Trying to force it into another type of game is exactly why the industry is so littered with clones and lookalikes trying to be successful on the coattails of another game.

[P1G V3n0m]

I think that's kind of the point of Nexuiz with it's slow walking speed, fast immediate jumping speed, and slow build of speed for every jump thereafter, as well as some obvious(and some less obvious) ways to abuse that to build speed faster. Just jumping around alone hugely improves speed over walking already. And, since there's so much air control, and almost total ground control between jumps, maintaining speed and not flying off the map is less about muscle memory and more about technique.

I think the main problem comes from the fact that a lot of people just want to feel better than other people, without actually learning the theory or understanding how to be good at it. Especially from this kind of game, people want to go online, kill people like that guy in their favorite Halo/CoD montage, and then brag about it on forums. I don't know if it's a huge problem right now, as I've been busy with other things, but that's the kind of attitude I see around any new competitive game released. Everyone whines that this or that thing is broken because it doesn't suit them, and gives other players an advantage. Some people even complain that the act of jumping is, in and of it's self, broken and an exploit, and should only be used to get around.(seriously, this happens. wtf.)
You really can't even attempt to please everyone anymore. There's just no way to do it. The best thing to do is just keep on going with the flow of whatever they came up with, and try to build on it and improve it objectively. If people dislike the flow of the game, they either didn't give it a chance or it just isn't for them. Trying to force it into another type of game is exactly why the industry is so littered with clones and lookalikes trying to be successful on the coattails of another game.

Excellent point. But, while cloning successful games does get old, it's important not to embrace an inferior system just because it's original or less common. Not saying that's what you do though, just saying that some people do make that mistake, or rather use that as an excuse to accept the game's shortcomings. Yes, no one wants Nexuiz to be a Quake clone, but that shouldn't be a reason to embrace a different system.

I like the way you think. If you haven't done so already, I recommend checking out David Sirlin's writing's on competitive gaming and game development. The man offer's great insight into the competitive mind and speaks from lots of experience. http://www.sirlin.net/ptw

[Mouse]

But that is a reason to embrace something different. Not necessarily something worse, but currently, something we just don't quite know enough about.
Onece the game matures, then we can start bitching about this and that. ;p

[Ghostflux]

I think it depends on the player's ideals. Some people want a game they can play that doesn't require hours of muscle memory training, while others need something that separates themselves from a player that hasn't put in the time to develop it. Some people say it raises the skill ceiling or adds depth, but mostly what it does is make the gap between casual and hardcore larger. A hardcore player isn't necessarily more skilled than a casual player, they just devote more time to the game and learning the little nuances. Time spent does not = skill, but it does give players that want something to work towards another goal. This same argument is made about fighting games that require the player to memorize and practice over and over long combo chains in order to compete. Sadly, that is a big turn off for people that like the game but don't want to spend hours exercising their muscle memory. It's a shallow way to add depth but is commonly accepted as the norm.

I understand that the casualization of the arena FPS genre is not what people want, but is there no other way to add depth to the movement that doesn't rely heavily on muscle memory? I've said it before, the depth to the movement in Quake doesn't come from training the muscle memory, but rather from knowing how to use those techniques effectively. Training the muscle memory is merely and obstacle in the way of properly playing the game.

Just a quick definition of the word "skill"

Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.

Tell me how is muscle memory not a skill on itself by it's definition?

Certainly the gap between the hardcore and the casual player becomes bigger. But quite honestly, getting rewarded for investing time into a game is still a thousand times better than the realisation that you will at one point grow older and simply can't keep up with the reflexes of a 12 year old kid, no matter how long you practice.
You can call muscle memory shallow, and I would agree with that. But here's the thing, many games these days are made with the idea that a newcomer should be given a chance to win the game by simplifying such aspects of the game, totally removing that initial boundary of the practice of techniques.
It's certainly a way to raise the accessibility, but the issue is that it kills competitiveness. What's the point of getting better, if practice will only make you a tiny bit better than someone who is playing it for the first time. I really think it's part of an attitude problem, in sports people are forced to accept a loss and deal with it, in games people lose and try to find every bit of unfairness they can find to justify why they lost. A game that forces people to accept that practice makes perfect, makes it much more viable to use as an e-sport, no matter how shallow the underlying aspects may be. Because like you said, depth can be found in the proper execution of things.

[P1G V3n0m]

@Ghostflux Very true, there should a be goal worth working for. It's hard to understand exactly what will require skill in a game because the sad truth is, some people will be gods at the game naturally, others will never even be close to that good, no matter how much time they spend practicing.

My whole point was really that requiring someone to spend time developing their muscle memory just to play the game is a little much. Some people call that "depth", but it's more like a chore. Kind of like in a fighting game, if you need to learn to use an arcade stick to be the best you can be, but you aren't used to arcade sticks. Then it's just a chore that has to be done before you can get competitive.

I'd like the devs to explore other areas that would add depth to the movement. The laser from the original Nexuiz was a fine example, but that was removed for some reason.

I definitely get what your saying about a new player needing to learn the game to be good, and I agree, it should not be an easy pick up and play game. However, I don't think making the inputs more complicated adds any real depth to the movement, it's just a chore.

[Flea]

I play Xonotic quite a bit in duels, as well as observe, and I can't see anything broken about the weapon balance. Plus I spend a lot of time on the xonotic forums, and the community has a very open mind to debating issues and suggestions. While many people might be resistant to major changes(or rather the devs who has to rewrite code for them), voices are certainly heard.

Most weapon balance can be controlled with cvars, so there is not really much for devs to do. The exception being how the electro secondary works and shotgun melee.
I had a long discussion with someone (nifrek maybe?) on IRC #xonotic, I raised multiple points. i.e. mortar secondary needs more arc, less speed, longer detonation time, plus a bunch of other stuff I thought was broken. I also raised similar points on a thread in the forum. All of the responses were along the lines of "That's the weapon balance, play better." Yeah, so I figured that was the direction it was going in and that was that. ( I had a quick look for the thread, but couldn't find it).
I have had this discussion a few times on IRC and the forums, and I think I have worn out my welcome (such that it was).

I believe if someone feels strongly about something, they should voice their opinion on the forum where the devs will hear them, and perhaps other people will come forth with a similar opinion. If not, then they are doomed to accept any changes or issues in silent protest.

As stated above, I have raised issues many times but have been shutdown. Admittedly my opinion doesn't count for much. I'm not doomed to accept changes or issues. I have no desire to play a game that is no fun to play, and is so overwhelmingly imbalanced that only 10 people worldwide can ever frag anyone.

I think the general attitude on the Xonotic forums right now is that the game is still in beta, so this is the time to figure out in which directions the players want it to go. Also, it's up to v0.6 right now, so perhaps the broken weapon balance you spoke of has already been fixed?

Maybe. I still check local servers occasionally, but there is never anyone playing, and playing Xonotic with >250 ping is a complete waste of time. Nexuiz was hard enough, but Xonotic is impossible.

The game is still in beta and the devs are listening to suggestions. You ought to head over and get involved in the discussions because this is the best time. And we could always use another player, especially one that can offer an intelligent debate.

I'll wait for release 1.0 and see which philosophy has prevailed. Who knows, it might actually be fun to play.

[P1G V3n0m]

idk man, it sounds like you didn't give it a fair chance. Or perhaps it was broken at some point, but it is not now. I hear gripes out of left field every day about the games balance. What it usually comes down to is does the community agree with you? If not, then that's just the way it is and I guess it's not the game for you. However, I have no clue where you are coming from with the statement about only 10 people being able to get kills. You can probably see how when you say something like that, people are going to assume that you just suck at the game and dismiss your opinion.

I play everyday and I watch others play, and I don't see any instance of 1 weapon dominating or anything that would suggest that the game is broken. I can honestly say that the Nex, RL, Mortar, and Electro are all pretty damn powerful and useful in their own ways. The MG is being replaced with an LG, so it's not important atm, and the crylink is good for CTF and DM, but still being developed.

Maybe. I still check local servers occasionally, but there is never anyone playing, and playing Xonotic with >250 ping is a complete waste of time. Nexuiz was hard enough, but Xonotic is impossible.

Dude, where do you live? I can understand not wanting to play if there are no people near you and your ping is over 250. I will, however, let you know that the devs have implemented client-side player movement, so you will not see anyone lagging or teleporting around. Of course, with a ping that high, you would probably still have to stick to hitscan weapons, so that would kinda suck unless you really like minsta.

[Flea]

idk man, it sounds like you didn't give it a fair chance. Or perhaps it was broken at some point, but it is not now. I hear gripes out of left field every day about the games balance. What it usually comes down to is does the community agree with you?

I agree. The Xonotic 'community', such that it is,probably doesn't agree with me. This is called confirmation bias. When you reduce a community to only the people who agree with you, you have group-think.

However, I have no clue where you are coming from with the statement about only 10 people being able to get kills. You can probably see how when you say something like that, people are going to assume that you just suck at the game and dismiss your opinion.

Problem with that is, everyone sucks when they first start a game. I guess what you are telling me is that Xonotic is not for new players, only the existing community, who are awesome at the current game as it currently is?

I play everyday

Half your luck.

and I watch others play, and I don't see any instance of 1 weapon dominating or anything that would suggest that the game is broken.

I think that has more to do with who is playing than the game itself. But you are probably right, it's not the game for me because I "suck" at it.

Dude, where do you live?

Downunder. Not being in EU or NA means my opinion doesn't count for much.

I can understand not wanting to play if there are no people near you and your ping is over 250.

Well, we used to have a community of 50 players in Nexuiz, but now there is no-one playing Xon. I still occasionally get in contact with some of the regulars from times gone by, and they all agree, Xon is no fun, so they aren't interested in playing.

I will, however, let you know that the devs have implemented client-side player movement, so you will not see anyone lagging or teleporting around. Of course, with a ping that high, you would probably still have to stick to hitscan weapons, so that would kinda suck unless you really like minsta.

I guess since laser jumping and rocket jumping were completely nerfed in Xon, high ping doesn't matter so much. When you are 12 hours behind NA though it's hard to find a game. To be fair, when I start a Custom Match in Nexuiz now, I get a lot of EU/Russians turning up with ping of >300, and they cannot hit me, even with splash weapons, so it's not a problem with Xonotic. High ping sucks for all FPS (although I find Urban Terror's antilag a pretty good compromise).

[Kwacker]

Well, the trickjumping in virtually every shooter out there that ever did it well wasn't something deliberately laid out from the start. In Quake, Half Life/CS/Source games, ect, it's been an exploit or series of exploits in the persistent player physics system that people have found, and learned to abuse to gain an advantage. The only times it started out as something deliberate with a new engine, it wound up being shallow and missing much of what made it fun to begin with.(Painkiller, for example)

Sorry to go back so far in the conversation here but, whilst I agree that many shooters movement systems have been developed through exploits, the rocket jump mechanics in TF2 were a very deliberately made part of the physics engine. (I understand that TF2 is a different style of game to quake but it does also have it's similarities and it's the only game I know well enough to properly compare to.)

I think that maybe the perfection of rocket jumping in Nexuiz would be enough to make the movement seem like it has far more depth. I understand that there is rocket jumping at the moment but it leaves a lot to be desired. From my experience trying it; it is incredibly hard to get a good amount of forward momentum and the speed of which you're travelling doesn't seem to have great affect on the velocity of your jump (I tried rocket jumping off of the top of ramps whilst pogo-ing up them, hoping for impressive results and was disappointed at what I found).

Whilst I understand that it may just be that it hasn't been fully explored (the Hagar looks very promising for some fun jumping), it does seem like some changes to the physics engine could definitely make rocket jumping a far more versatile tool than it is at the moment. I don't know how bigger changes they'd have to be though and I understand that the devs can't rewrite the whole physics engine now.

[P1G V3n0m]

Problem with that is, everyone sucks when they first start a game. I guess what you are telling me is that Xonotic is not for new players, only the existing community, who are awesome at the current game as it currently is?

Yes, there is a high learning curve, but some people find that to be more of a reason to keep playing than anything. I think it's funny that you say Xonotic is too hard for new players because many Nexuiz players have complained that some things, like nerfing the laser and making fast movement easier, lowered the skill ceiling. Sorry, but I have to agree with everyone else then if you complained that the game is not noob friendly enough.

Also, about the statement you made, "I think that has more to do with who is playing than the game itself". Are you suggesting that the game is imbalanced because some players are extremely good at it? Is this something you actually consider to be a problem?

I'm actually surprised that you played classic Nexuiz, given your statements about Xonotic being too hard. Xonotic is hard for new players, but then so is UT and Q3. That's how arena FPS are. If the game was designed for instant gratification, it would just be too casual for me.

[Mouse]

Cryengine 3, unfortunately, doesn't have a physics system that lends it's self to that. I don't think they actually could make a good, clean system of building momentum through projectiles. It would be a nice alternative movement system, though.

[Flea]

The link you posted earlier (Sirlin) was very interesting. A couple of sections in the book resonated. One was the section on 'the scrub' (http://www.sirlin.ne...ates-guide.html) and the other was on 'What should be banned?' (http://www.sirlin.ne...-be-banned.html).

Both of these chapters describe EXACTLY what happened in classic Nexuiz. Constant whining from Nex Jedis along the lines of "Oh, the Crylink is just spam. The mortar is too powerful. The laser does too much damage, too much push. I was killed with a spammy weapon by some noob. wah wah wah cry cry cry moan moan moan".

According to Sirlin, the game is the game, the weapon is the weapon, the moves are the moves. If you start nerfing weapons, changing physics, because some people specialise in 'spammy weapons' or 'cheap moves', you are removing depth from the game and making it shallow.

I think it's funny that you say Xonotic is too hard for new players because many Nexuiz players have complained that some things, like nerfing the laser and making fast movement easier, lowered the skill ceiling.

I think it's ironic you find that funny. Making fast movement easier is exactly the kind of shallowness that started back in 2.5.1 There used to be players that specialised ONLY in movement. Yes they could frag, but their real skills were in movement and fast flag capture. This is exactly the kind of thing that scrubs like FruitieX complained about. It's WHY the laser was nerfed. So the Nex Jedis didn't have to worry about learning movement, just press forward and spacebar.

In other words, Nexuiz used to have specialisation, and in that regard, it had a depth that went beyond most FPS arena games. That specialisation was rendered moot, and the game became shallow. Now Xonotic is the ultimate triumph of shallowness.

Sorry, but I have to agree with everyone else then if you complained that the game is not noob friendly enough.

I loled.

Also, about the statement you made, "I think that has more to do with who is playing than the game itself".  Are you suggesting that the game is imbalanced because some players are extremely good at it?  Is this something you actually consider to be a problem?

No, I am suggesting that the game has been changed to suit a certain type of game style and eliminate every one else from the game. Hence my comment about confirmation bias and group-think that you seem to have missed. I base this conclusion on the players who remain and the players who left. Not just noobs, but some very highly skilled players. Whole clans have disappeared.

I'm actually surprised that you played classic Nexuiz, given your statements about Xonotic being too hard.  Xonotic is hard for new players, but then so is UT and Q3.  That's how arena FPS are.  If the game was designed for instant gratification, it would just be too casual for me.

I've played all the games you mention above and more.(UT99/2003,Q1,2,3/QL,Nexuiz,Assault Cube,Urban Terror++) and have enjoyed them all. In fact, I have been playing video games since 1980. I played the original Space Invaders, Galaga, Asteroids, Battle Zone and Defender in the arcades. I don't know much about games, but I know what I like.

[P1G V3n0m]

I'm glad you enjoyed Sirlin's book. The man really knows what he's talking about, and you can apply most of his philosophies to other game genres, not just fighting games. All that stuff about scrubs is right on the nose, and I've heard the rants from scrubs in every competitive game. And usually the more competitive the game is, the louder the whining. Often times, the very techniques they whine about are the techniques that separate the casual players from the hardcore players. However, it's important to not dismiss every complaint a whining, as some game are simply broken.

Anyway, it's been a fun debate, but I think we are gonna need to agree to disagree at this point. I honestly can't argue about pre Nexuiz 2.5.1 vs Xonotic because I didn't play it. I only know that I thoroughly enjoy Xonotic and I hope others might give it a fair chance. If they don't enjoy it, well that's ok.

[Mouse]

I enjoyed Xonotic after unborking the physics back to Nexuiz style.
Just makes it feel more immersive. Being able to sharpturn in Xonotic felt out of palce and weird.

I still think some of the weapon changes are rather obnoxious though, even if they're technically more balanced. Just a matter of preference, I guess.

[Flea]

I'm glad you enjoyed Sirlin's book.  The man really knows what he's talking about, and you can apply most of his philosophies to other game genres, not just fighting games.  All that stuff about scrubs is right on the nose, and I've heard the rants from scrubs in every competitive game.  And usually the more competitive the game is, the louder the whining.  Often times, the very techniques they whine about are the techniques that separate the casual players from the hardcore players.  However, it's important to not dismiss every complaint a whining, as some game are simply broken.

I'm curious about the change to the Rail Gun from Q3 to Quake Live from 100dmg to 80. Id do not make weapon balance changes lightly, so the arguments from scrubs and pros alike must have raged before that decision was made. It's true that a good railer can be devastating when you spawn with 100 health, but the rail gun has a long reload time, and changing the RG damage has highlighted just how devastating the Lightning Gun is. The funny thing is that the LG was always devastating, and probably relatively overpowered, but it's use was kept in check by the Rail Gun (LG is a hard weapon to use 'on the move', so using it makes you more vulnerable to rail). When I was still playing Quake Live, especially in Clan Arena, it was constant LG whoring in T3 down. T4 and above not so much, but it is strange how a change to one weapon's balance can have such a large 'butterfly effect' on the other weapons and even the game play in general.
The big advantage that commercial studios with deep pockets have over open source projects is that they can thoroughly test the weapon balance on large numbers of people to tweak the balance before releasing. In open source games,releasing a bad weapon balance can cause a mass exodus from the game that is very hard to recover from. On the other hand, open source projects, if responsive to feedback, can release new versions much faster than commercial studios, and have a potential advantage in that respect, if they are able discern majority opinion from 'squeaky wheel' aristocracy.

Anyway, it's been a fun debate, but I think we are gonna need to agree to disagree at this point.  I honestly can't argue about pre Nexuiz 2.5.1 vs Xonotic because I didn't play it.  I only know that I thoroughly enjoy Xonotic and I hope others might give it a fair chance.  If they don't enjoy it, well that's ok.

I'm happy to agree to disagree. If you enjoy Xonotic, I wish you all the best. I can't really look at the game with 'fresh eyes' the way someone like yourself can. I find Xonotic too much like Nexuiz to be considered a truly new addition to the genre, but too different to the old Nexuiz to really have the depth needed for broad appeal. Time however, will tell. I am sure the game will go through many iterations and enhancements before it reaches 1.0. It may even become a great FPS game with depth, specialisation and broad appeal at that point. If it is, I will play it, and I will convince others to do so. Right now though, it's not for me (or anyone else in my part of the world apparently).

[Ghostflux]

I know this is slightly off topic, but commenting on the railgun damage change. It was done because due to a couple of reasons.
1. The railgun is made for hit and run, which means that it's very hard to directly counter. Pro's getting accuracies of over 80%, it simply becomes a weapon that can put tremendous pressure with no real way to retaliate.
2. The railgun works at any range, while other weapons such as the LG are quite useless at range. Which means that if the weapon is effective enough, people will keep their distance which is detrimental to the upclose action.

Clan Arena, is probably the pub gamemode of Quake Live. I don't know what you're talking about but in T3 as well as T4 the LG was still very dominant, but that's more due to the fact that CA is simply a very spammy gamemode with no real incentives to play smart. The trick to winning in T4 was pretty much sticking together and raining down terror on the enemy.

I wish I could relate all of this to nexuiz, but the game is so far missing competition. So I haven't been able to invest so much time in the exact details of the weapons of this game.

[P1G V3n0m]

I can't really look at the game with 'fresh eyes' the way someone like yourself can. I find Xonotic too much like Nexuiz to be considered a truly new addition to the genre, but too different to the old Nexuiz to really have the depth needed for broad appeal.

Ah I see now. I think this is a common thing amongst Nexuiz players who have tried Xonotic. Perhaps some of the proposed changes, like adding the LG and removing the shotgun and making a laser starting weapon, will prove to be both enhancements to the game, and game changers that will allow for Nexuiz players to see a different game. Or maybe they will break it lol (I hope not).

Anyway, I hope more Aussies start playing. I know a few that are always stuck in NA or EU servers for the same reason. Xonotic netcode is good enough to play at their pings, but not reliably with anything but hitscan weapons.

Also, I think ghostflux is right about the RG. Even with the nerf, the RG is pretty powerful. It does 80 dmg instantly, at any range.

[Mouse]

An even lesser starting weapon than the Xonotic shotgun? Yeesh. They nerfed it so hard form Nexuiz, and even then, it wasn't a very compelling weapon.

[P1G V3n0m]

An even lesser starting weapon than the Xonotic shotgun? Yeesh. They nerfed it so hard form Nexuiz, and even then, it wasn't a very compelling weapon.

The shotgun is just a starting weapon. It's not supposed to be anything amazing. Although, it does have a great use as a finisher, being hit scan and all. The last thing you want to hear when your near death is the shotgun because there's no getting away from it. The current alt fire on the shotgun is a melee, which is not only ridiculous to add to a shotgun(which is already a powerful close range weapon), but also kinda OP doing 80 damage with no charge up or anything. Also, compared to the other weapons, the shotgun is extremely unimaginative and something I never felt fit the game.

As far as the new laser goes, there's talk about somehow implementing the shotguns attack PLUS a melee attack into it, while still keeping the laser functionality for jumping and juggling. I think everyone is pretty skeptical of that idea, so we'll see if it's ever even realized. it would be far more realistic to combine the laser and shotgun primary fire, and then make a new melee weapon all together. Whatever the case, this is definitely the time for the devs to experiment with stuff like this.