12 replies to this topic

[Yoseph]

I firmly believe that the most competitive, fair, fun, and balanced way to do pickup timers is to have them on set/consistent/static timers that don't change match to match.

For an example of this system refer to Halo CE, this system is largely what made CE such an amazing competitive game.

For anyone that is confused, this system has unchanging spawn times that are predictable to the player before the match even begins.

Ex. if armor shards are 20s then they will spawn at the start of the match, 20s into the game, 40s, 60s, 80s, so on and so forth until the game is over.

If a powerup or mutator spawn timer is 90s(1:30) then the next one will be at 180s(3 min) into the game.

The advantage this brings to the table is if every player is aware of the timers then it encourages players to better form strategies around obtaining and fighting over pickups as well as keeps everyone on the same level as the timers are predictable.

I've heard some people argue the skill of timing dynamic timers but I really don't think this applies to team games at all as it's really impossible to time all the items with so much going on. Making the game more predictable in a team situation makes it more skillful. Even in 1v1s I think the dynamic timer advantage is debatable. Maybe with dynamics players will time 5 items or so but with static timers you have to time 8 weapons, large armor, powerups, mutators, and even armor shards. Keeping all of that straight takes some serious skill but once you have that skill you can concentrate on strategy and obtaining the pickups.

I think this should be looked at seriously as it could really put Nexuiz over the top as far as competitive merit and depth go.

My rough suggestions for static pickup timers in Nexuiz

Armor Shards: 15-20s
Large Armor: 30-45s
Weapons: 30-60s
Powerups: 90-120s
Mutators: 45-120s (because of how different the mutators can be as far as effectiveness goes, being able to set a list of mutators to a given spawn point would be good for determining an appropriate spawn time)

This would be like a tier system where some mutator pickups are all tier 1 and would spawn every 45s. Tier 2 every 60s and tier 3 every 90s(just examples)

[phantac1]

Weapons should definitely not take 30 secs to spawn considering how garbage some weapons are off host. In a perfect world of LAN sure.

[Chef Linguini]

Consistent timers are great for Halo. They could be great for some things in Nexuiz IMO but not everything. I don't think armor shards or large armor needs to be placed on static timers.

Picking up shards or large gives you 2 advantages. It gives you the armor to control the map and it gives you the knowledge to keep control. I personally love that aspect and I wouldn't want the opponent to have a "fair" advantage lol.

Strength should spawn every 2 minutes. Mutators should be static as well.

I'm undecided on weapons. Right now they respawn so quickly I don't think it's much of an issue.

[Enficy]

I completely agree, I still play Halo CE occasionally, and timing OS and camo on Chillout is of utmost importance in scrims.

[Yoseph]

Consistent timers are great for Halo. They could be great for some things in Nexuiz IMO but not everything. I don't think armor shards or large armor needs to be placed on static timers.

I like your choice of the word NEED. Armor as is works fine and doesn't NEED a fix but I believe paying extreme attention to detail and making the game as competitive as possible even if it's insignificant for the most part is a good thing.

Picking up shards or large gives you 2 advantages. It gives you the armor to control the map and it gives you the knowledge to keep control. I personally love that aspect and I wouldn't want the opponent to have a "fair" advantage lol.

You said it yourself, picking it up gives you 2 advantages and you want to have the "unfair" advantage. Not everything we like is good for competition and in the long run fair is always more healthy for both fun and competition as fairness breeds strategy and depth.

Strength should spawn every 2 minutes. Mutators should be static as well.

Agreed

I'm undecided on weapons. Right now they respawn so quickly I don't think it's much of an issue.

Agreed, static timers would go largely unnoticed. People would likely start to pick up on them when, lets say armor shards are on 20s timers and they pick up a shard at the 18s mark, then watch the shard spawn again 2s later. Some people would say this is a problem, my argument is that your opponent has full knowledge of these spawns and therefore has the knowledge needed to strategically counter. This is how it worked in CE and I see no reason it wouldn't work the same way in Nexuiz.

Bolded

[Chef Linguini]

Ok you got me on word choice.

But while I like consistent timers for some things, I like dynamic for large and shards BECAUSE of the "unfair" aspect to it. It's not a huge advantage. If a player doesn't know the timers they can just wait by large for the 5 or so seconds they believe it will spawn. This gives the player with the knowledge of timers to move around the map and gain/retain control.

Plus you can hear when large is picked up (at least you can in smaller maps such as Strength).

Dynamic timers reward control more so than static timers. They reward the player who is better at timing and keeping control.

Dynamic timers can also be "paused" by the person controlling it (they wait to pick it up) which allows more gameplay options.

I understand your points here, and for halo I think static timers are necessary due to the inherently slower gameplay. But this game is so much faster paced that we can and should allow dynamic timers for the skill gap increase.

I was watching some quake duel videos and it was really interesting how they played. Less focus was placed on actual shooting skills. Instead, the better player won by "choking" their opponent. The victor successfully controlled all of the power ups and prevented their opponent from every posing much of a threat.

I tried bringing this strategy to Nexuiz and it worked quite well. (I suppose this "strategy" is really just common sense in the Arena FPS world, maybe you already know about it lol). Instead of trying to outright slay opponents, I tried to constantly steal their armor shards and weapons. Because of this, I think/suspect my teammates were able to slay more easily.

If armor were on static timers this strategy wouldn't work as well if at all IMO. Would that be necessarily bad for gameplay? I think so but maybe not. It would be interesting to see. What you're proposing is definitely HUGE in terms of the affects it would have.

I think that there are more effective ways to increase the skill gap while making the playing field more fair. They need to test 50 damage on the shotgun's alt fire.

[Yoseph]

Ok you got me on word choice.

But while I like consistent timers for some things, I like dynamic for large and shards BECAUSE of the "unfair" aspect to it. It's not a huge advantage. If a player doesn't know the timers they can just wait by large for the 5 or so seconds they believe it will spawn. This gives the player with the knowledge of timers to move around the map and gain/retain control.

How can you like this?, it forces a player to camp in order to gain knowledge that should be readily available for fair competition slowing down the pace of the game.

Plus you can hear when large is picked up (at least you can in smaller maps such as Strength).

I love audio cues but don't think they make up for the unpredictability brought forth by this timer type in a team game with 6-8 players

Dynamic timers reward control more so than static timers. They reward the player who is better at timing and keeping control.

How so?, knowing when to control an area for a given pickup seems more rewarding than guessing to me. I'll admit that timing a single item is more challenging, but unfair, and I think that the positives brought forth by fairness outweigh the skill in timing dynamically. Also I could argue that timing all items statically is more skillful because you can guesstimate/predict your opponents map movement better. This increases the metagame and keeps you thinking about your opponent more so than just whoreing pickups that is promoted by dynamic timers.

Dynamic timers can also be "paused" by the person controlling it (they wait to pick it up) which allows more gameplay options.

You're talking about pausing to make the timer unpredictable to your opponent. That's the problem, unfair timers, snowball effect, slowed campy gameplay, single minded/whore oriented gameplay. Eff that

I understand your points here, and for halo I think static timers are necessary due to the inherently slower gameplay. But this game is so much faster paced that we can and should allow dynamic timers for the skill gap increase.

The problems with dynamic timers are only lessened and pretty much made irrelevant by fast spawn timers. The only item that would matter is the strength but thank god Illfonic had the sense to put in the 10s indicator making it a fair timer. I firmly believe that skill gap is increased by making timers predictable throughout the match to all players. Allows for a much deeper metagame.

I was watching some quake duel videos and it was really interesting how they played. Less focus was placed on actual shooting skills. Instead, the better player won by "choking" their opponent. The victor successfully controlled all of the power ups and prevented their opponent from every posing much of a threat.

It wouldn't play like this in a team game with dynamics though, too chaotic. What you describe is actually fairly similar to CE though, which Nexuiz as a competitive team game is more comparable to. Maybe dynamic timers would be good for increasing skill gap in duels though provided the audio cues are effective.

I tried bringing this strategy to Nexuiz and it worked quite well. (I suppose this "strategy" is really just common sense in the Arena FPS world, maybe you already know about it lol). Instead of trying to outright slay opponents, I tried to constantly steal their armor shards and weapons. Because of this, I think/suspect my teammates were able to slay more easily.

This strategy would be plenty effective with static timers and more predictably so. You could time every single rocket and make sure they never get one by picking it up every time, they would have the same knowledge you do though and if they want the rocket they need to for a strategy to prevent you from getting it. This is how the game naturally evolves with static timers vs the guessing game of dynamic timers and wondering if you should just sit on an item until it spawns or transverse the map. No guessing with statics, just strategy.

If armor were on static timers this strategy wouldn't work as well if at all IMO. Would that be necessarily bad for gameplay? I think so but maybe not. It would be interesting to see. What you're proposing is definitely HUGE in terms of the affects it would have.

Not really, in truth I think the timers are so fast that gameplay wouldn't be too significantly impacted but I think the impact would be resoundingly positive as it reduces guesswork and increases the individuals ability to predict and control no matter what situation they are in.

I think that there are more effective ways to increase the skill gap while making the playing field more fair. They need to test 50 damage on the shotgun's alt fire.

No doubt, shotty is still a bit weak for my taste

I love posting in your quotes with bolded replies

[Chef Linguini]

meh

Will edit this when I come up with a post


(AND WHEN I STOP KILLING WHALES)



but really, I prob won't come up with something better than


"meh"

[zirtec]

This is what i have recently gathered from arenas. I'm just getting into them.

Its just the way it plays out this way that contributes to what makes arena shooters unique. You are given all the ability to race around the map and reach many areas within short amounts of time for a reason. Grabbing a particular item not only stacks you but gives you the extra advantage/reward of knowing when it comes up again. Its all about speed and who gets there first, fighting and being tactical about it all the while. The team who can get to all the important places quickly and maintain a knowledge and awareness of pickups as well as outshooting and overall outsmarting the other team, will be the better team. There's definitely a great deal of strategy to this, its a constant and much quicker map control on a different level so there's a lot more going on in arena shooters at any given time. This being the case, there are many more variables that contribute to the overall outcome of the game. Think of it like bees fighting rather than slugs/ chess rather than checkers. (The main thing to understand is the players are in complete control of how everything in the map plays out, rather than the map handing over set windows of opportunity.) sounds competitive to me. It seems to have more of a flowing manner to it with more micro level occurrences on the map. A team in order to have control will have to flow well among many opportunities, their wins must out weight their losses or at least the other teams, and its your job to interrupt their flow wherever possible and gain your own.- although that's with all other shooters its seems most solid in arenas

[LeX]

Lol @ 30-60 sec weapon times...really

[Yoseph]

This is what i have recently gathered from arenas. I'm just getting into them.

Its just the way it plays out this way that contributes to what makes arena shooters unique. You are given all the ability to race around the map and reach many areas within short amounts of time for a reason. Grabbing a particular item not only stacks you but gives you the extra advantage/reward of knowing when it comes up again. Its all about speed and who gets there first, fighting and being tactical about it all the while. The team who can get to all the important places quickly and maintain a knowledge and awareness of pickups as well as outshooting and overall outsmarting the other team, will be the better team. There's definitely a great deal of strategy to this, its a constant and much quicker map control on a different level so there's a lot more going on in arena shooters at any given time. This being the case, there are many more variables that contribute to the overall outcome of the game. Think of it like bees fighting rather than slugs/ chess rather than checkers. (The main thing to understand is the players are in complete control of how everything in the map plays out, rather than the map handing over set windows of opportunity.) sounds competitive to me. It seems to have more of a flowing manner to it with more micro level occurrences on the map. A team in order to have control will have to flow well among many opportunities, their wins must out weight their losses or at least the other teams, and its your job to interrupt their flow wherever possible and gain your own.- although that's with all other shooters its seems most solid in arenas

The only thing I'm proposing changing is the awareness of all players in the game. This adds depth and strategy by allowing for more prediction and multi-dimentional counters. Static timers would change things at a competitive level but it wouldn't make any of the things you mentioned different, just the way you go about it. If dynamics are chess, statics are chess+ by comparison. Regardless of how well dynamic timers play out statics allow for more strategies to form and a deeper game overall.

Lol @ 30-60 sec weapon times...really

current dynamics are what, 20s, because there is no "down time" with static spawns there timers naturally seem faster as far as weapon appearance on maps go. I think 30s static is roughly = 20s dynamic and I think some of the more powerful weapons could afford to have slightly longer timers. It would definitely be cool to stagger some of the timers so that weapons are coming up at different times.

[LeX]

By making weapons (more powerful ones for example) take longer to spawn or spawn on different timers your allowing a player to control that "power" weapon much easier. If your playing on Overlook and the rocket launcher only spawns every X seconds then it is that much easier to control it. An experienced player OR team will make sure that if they get said weapon first then they will control it throughout the duration of the game. Now if all other weapons are on a different, much shorter timer but can't approaiately counter the "power" weapon then whats to stop players from just using that weapon and spawn camping your area so that you can't get something to defend yourselve with. I just don't see where changing times on weapons would actually benefit the game.


Imagine playing on overlook and the rockets spawn say 2min into the game where as the ravager spawns first, then the hagger, clancutter, electro, mortar, and finally Nex. They all spawn staggered like suggested and by their respective damage tiers or something along those lines. By the time the rockets spawn you, Im running around with Double Strength, I grab the RL and proceed to sit in the middle chasing your team down with guided rocks..which is always a blast might i add . After killing all 3/4 players I then go collect YOUR teams weapon PU's, ammo, shards etc. You then spawn and your ..well your screwed cause you have nothing to defend yourself with besides a shotgun..You have no idea when you'll be able to get another weapon again since they spawn at different times and when you finally do I've been spawn camping you for the past 3-4min. While letting another person on my team get the "power" weapon until we all have one.


Please give me an example of how you see your idea working though cause you've put alot of thought into it

[zirtec]

I disagree, all this does is alert everyone to set up for on of their teams planned strategy for that particular powerup on that particular map. So you basically get whats in all other games already and actually has less depth-let me explain.

So with static, like i said you create a optimal strategy for the situation that would occur consistently every time you play that map. Sure this is competitive, your strategies and effectiveness of carrying them out against another team. But even though your strats are constantly evolving and getting more effective, the game cames down to preplanned setups that creates static gameplay lacking as much depth in how the game plays out from match to match(its always going to be the same times). Dynamic actually requires more awareness and more skill because like I said the players control everything-you need to know whats going on at all times, you don't get the assistance set times give. As far as spawns go(map control), no two matches/spawns will EVER play the same way-Static is ALWAYS the same spawns, its exactly that, static. Dynamic then would actually demand more strategy with the greater amount of variables. The skill here comes with players ability to adapt to the unforeseen circumstances, this demands much more from the player. Players not only need to know optimals, you have to have a great deal more knowledge and be much more flexible in order to capitalize in the everchanging unpredictable nature of dynamic gameplay.

Dynamic is what allows for depth to exist. Ex: static mindset vs dynamic mindset: In short if it were possible , a static mindset would not be able to learn abything new. The dynamic as an evolving, ever changing mindset, would experience all of the observed and never with the same perception. No experience ever the same as another. Take all of this and and all thats within every experience of the dynamic, and compare it to the static wich is 0. In other shooters, the "statics" within the game are really dynamics- they come and they go. Nothing is truly static, only figuratively. Without dynamics there is no "static" concept. Its all a matter of HOW dynamic (the more there is the more depth there is)

And if the static nature is what you like about those types of games, it wouldn't fit in any arena I've played. Static comes down to setup positioning with predetermined areas to hold down and battle it out. Arenas are about ever changing times and areas areas. You process and accomplish much more throughout the map. This is not to say that concept would neccesarily be bad-arena style combat(speed etc..) with fixed spawns, thought I dont think its intended for this game. Map design would need to be made to suit that.